A History of White Mill
and the
JOYCE family 
(deceased members only shown)

History of the Joyce name
Dorset and "White Mill"
The Banks family and "White Mill" 
Descendants of John Joyce (first marriage) 
Descendants of John Joyce (second marriage)
 On the Isle of Wight
Back to the Mainland
Charles Harry Joyce (by himself)  
Frank Alfred Joyce (some anecdotes)

Updated Aug 2002

“In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries several new families settled in the town of Galway, and other parts of that County; one of the principal of whom were De Jorse who came from Wales to Galway in the reign of Edward the First, and having formed an alliance with the O’Flahertys, chiefs of West Connaught, got large possessions in Connemara in the barony of Ross; and towards the borders of Mayo a large territory which is called “Joyces’ Country”.  These De Jorses changed their name to “Joyce”.

There appears to be some differences of opinion as to the origin of this family but all admit that they were an ancient, honourable, and nobly descended race; of tall and manly stature; and were allied to the Welsh and British Princes.” - according to O’Harts Irish Pedigrees 1881.

The family discussed later in this book has not yet been traced to these early families mentioned above.

Four Coats of Arms attributed to the JOYCE family have been found (but no association shown with the families discussed here):

However the Joyce family followed in this booklet has not been shown to be related to those mentioned by Hutchins.

From “The survey of West Country Manors 1525” - The land of Cecily, Marchioness of Dorset, Lady Harington and Bonville in Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset and Wiltshire.                Sturmyster Marschall - Tenants at Will -  John Joyce holds there the moiety of one tenement to which belong 7½ acres of arable land of which 3½ lie in the northfylde and 4½ lie in the southfylde and are worth yearly each 10d and also one half acre of meadow lying in the Home Meade near Whyte Mylle Brygge worth 16d yearly and common for 2 cows, 2 horses and 50 sheep and he pays yearly fora all 5/1d. - This is the earliest mention found of a Joyce in the White Mill area, and may not be connected to the later families.

Hutchins History of Dorset, Vol III (page 164 Shapwick) gives: 20 Hen. VII John Husee at his death held six messuages, 320 a. of land and White Mill in Shapwick, of the Manor of Shapwick.(Aug 1504 - Aug 1505)

Hearth Tax records for Dorset showed evidence of the Joyce family in the years 1662, 1664 and 1674 which were examined.  A Hearth Tax of two shillings was levied upon all housed in England and posessing hearths, with certain exemptions, and was first levied in 1662 and because of its unpopularity was repealed in 1689.  Hearth Tax 1662-1664 Shapwicke Tithing - occupiers of Whitemill - 4 hearths, 2 stop’d (occupiers name not given but were these the same as mentioned earlier in this paragraph?)

White Mill and White Mill Farm, in the Parish of Shapwick formed part of the Kingston Lacy and Corfe Castle Estates owned by Henry Bankes.  According to a leaflet issued by the National Trust “The mill was substantially rebuilt in 1776 by Henry Bankes.  An Estate survey in 1773 revealed that no rent was being paid for the mill, since it was unusable.  Henry Bankes’ records in his memorandum books show, by spending £300 on rebuilding the mill the teneant John Joyce agreed to pay £20 in rent each year.  From its reconstruction in 1776 the mill was occupied by the Joyce family until 1906 when the last miller T D Joyce died.”

More about the history of White Mill is at www.whitemill.org.uk 

In an attempt to determine possible links between the Joyce family and Bankes family the following researches were made:

The “National Biographical Dictionary” gives:

Sir John Bankes 1589-1644 born Keswick in Cumberland.  In 1630 made Attorney General to Prince Charles.  In 1634 Attorney General.  Purchased Corfe Castle at the age of 46 ( i.e. about 1635).

Lady Mary Bankes (d 1661) 2 prolonged sieges at Corfe Castle, 1st in 1643 (6 weeks), 2nd 1645 (8 weeks), lost this latter one - son & heir Ralph Bankes.

Kingston Lacy & Corfe Castle Estates, in 1978, confirmed that Whitemill itself and Whitemill farm had remained in the ownership of the Bankes family since 1773.  However in 1981 the Mr. Bankes then in ownership died leaving his lands of Studland Bay, Corfe Castle, White Mill Farms etc. to the National Trust.

It appears that the farm, mills and mill houses called White Mills, and certain fields call White Mill Fields were sold in 1773 to Henry Banks Esq.   According to the Vicar of Shapwick the Bankes family had been in Dorset for many years, from the time of Charles I (1625 to 1649).  About 1990 the National Trust took back the lease of the Mill from the tenants. 

Henry Bankes (1757-1834)

“Modern English Biography” gives:

George Bankes (1788-1856) 3rd son of Henry Bankes of Kingston Hall - Author of “The Story of Corfe Castle and of the many who have lived there” 1853.  In this, on page 99 starts Chapter III which covers the period “From the breaking out of the Great Rebellion in Ireland in October 1641 until the setting up of the Royal Standard in Nottingham in August 1642”.  This suggest some linkage between the Bankes family and Ireland (perhaps that is when some Joyces came to England from Ireland).  However a brief examination of the book gave no mention of the Joyce family.

There do appear to be hints of threads linking these facts.  It would be pleasing to show an Irish origin for the Joyce family followed here but to date this has not been achieved.

Examination of the registers of the Church of St. Bartholomew, Shapwick in Dorset, from 1654 showed their first evidence of a Joyce family in 1760 with the baptism of Betty Joyce daughter of John and Prudence Joyce of White Mill.  (these registers being kept in the Dorset County Record Office). Eight children of this family were baptised between 1760 and 1775. 

As John Joyce was at White Mill from 1760 or earlier, and the Bankes family only owned the Mill from 1773, John Joyce was probably the tenant to the earlier landlord.  No searches have yet been made to see if records exist relating to such a tenancy.

On 20 April 1768 John Joyce was required to fix a cliff at the side of the road by White Mill as it was dangerous, under penalty of £5.

Church Warden’s Accounts show their first mention of John Joyce in the Church Rate of 1773 (1 shilling and 4 pence) and by 1799 he was paying 4 shillings and 5 pence.

Prudence, we can tell from her headstone which in 1978 was still in the churchyard, died 19th July 1796 aged 61.  It is this John Joyce who is the forbearer of the families covered by this booklet.  John Joyce (widower) married, on 11th May 1799, Mary Small, spinster, in Wimborne Minster.  In September 1800 their son George Small Joyce was baptised in Shapwick.  At the age of 81 John Joyce died on 19th May 1811 as evidenced by his headstone (also standing in St. Bartholomew’s Churchyard, Shapwick).

The Will of John Joyce exists and is kept in the Dorset CRO.  The main section of it reads - “And I Give devise and Bequeath All my Estates and Property whatsoever and Wheresoever to James Small the Younger of Shapwick, Aforesaid, Baker, and Roger Corbin of the said Parish of Shapwick,  Yeoman, In Trust for the Use and Benefit of my Son George Joyce and my Wife Mary Howard Collins Joyce And my Will and desire is that if my Wife do not continue Sole and Unmarried during the life of my said Son George, then my desire is that my said Son George Joyce shall have my Leasehold Estates and Half of my Other Effects from and immediately after the second Marriage of my said Wife And if my said Son George Joyce do die Leaving no Child or Children by him Lawfully begotten, then and in that Case after the death of my said Wife I Give and Bequeath my Leasehold Estates to my daughters Elizabeth, Wife of Thomas Evans, and Prudence, Wife of William Groves Thomas, Share and Share Alike”.  A Codicil was further added six days before he died and this showed that on the death or marriage of his wife then his son George was to inherit all.

It is said in the family (the branch that spent part of the time on the Isle of Wight) that we descended from a Joyce, who was a giant of a man, came to Dorset from Galway and married a miller’s daughter.  Whether this was John Joyce has not been established, but John did live in, or in the area of White Mill, Shapwick.  Certainly the descendants from his first marriage lived in or possessed the lease of White Mill.  With regards to height we have some information about some Dorset Joyces in the 1790s-

Comparison of the heights above with others in those years would influence whether they might be considered tall men.  I have not done this research.

James Joyce married Ann Cull 29th Oct 1795 in Shapwick, and probably followed his father at the Mill, followed by his son Israel. 

John Joyce (bp 1762) the eldest son of John Joyce of Whitemill, became a Miller in Morden and died there in 1809.  He married his second wife, Elizbeth Fry, 13th Dec 1797 in Shapwick.  His Will states "..... I John Joyce of Morden West in the county of Dorset, miller being of good health...........my Mill and land at morden and my Leasehold at Hillbutte? I desire to be kept until my youngest child shall arrive at the age of twenty one years and then be sold and should my wife be then living to be put into 4 parts and 3 parts of the money so made to be parted among all my children then living equally and the 4th part to be put out to Interest for the Maintenance of my wife as long as she liveth provided she keeps unmarried ..................and my will and desire is that William Fry of Shapwick and James Joyce of Whitemill and William Groves Thomas of Blandford should look over the Family as Trustees.............this 24 July 1806 also witness Thomas Myles and John Bottem."  Interestingly there are similarities with his father's Will - they both mention William Groves Thomas and make provision for their son (a young child) and for the possibility of their relatively young second wife marrying again.  James Joyce of Whitemill was, no doubt, his brother.

Julius Imma Joyce (aged about 5) a son of James was found drowned in the Mill on 11 June 1907, and an Inquisition was held at the Mill. ......was found drowned and suffocated in a certain piece of water called the mill tail at or near a certain mill called White Mill ..... the said Julius Joyce had no marks of violence appearing on his body ......

Julia Ann Joyce, daughter of James married Harry Small 14th July 1828 in Shapwick.

Janette Sarah Mary Ann Joyce, daughter of James married Henry Herbert 22nd Dec 1834 in Shapwick.

Jemima Ann Joyce, daughter of James married James Evans 13 Feb 1819 in Shapwick.

Church Records in Sturminster Marshall, which lies just across the river from White Mill, has the following records

The John Joyce above probably being the son of John and Prudence Joyce as a John Joyce of Shapwick married Mary Raindle in Wimbourne in 1782.

Israel Joiada Charles Joyce the grandson of John Joyce by his first marriage, was still living in Shapwick in 1838

Israel’s daughter Julia Ann Joyce married Frederick Bartlet the fourth son of Samuel Bartlett, Chapel Farm, Hadley according to the Poole Pilot 2/3/1868, p.1.

Julia Ann Bartlet - nee Joyce with son Thomas Bartlet

Fredrick Bartlet

The children of Israel Johoida Charles Joyce were Julia Ann, William, James, Thomas Davis, Joiada Charles, Jennet Herbert and twin sister Jane Wesley.

James Joyce (1840 - 1868)	Thomas Davis Joyce  (1841 - 1909)	Charles Joyce (probably Joiada Charles Joyce) (1845 - 1878)
	Jeanett Joyce (born 1848)

Kelly’s Directory for the years 1885,1895, and 1903 showed Thomas Davis Joyce (a son of Israel Joyce) to be a farmer in Shapwick - the Mill apparently was no longer being used.  The 1915 Kelly’s gave Jas. Hobbs as the farmer at White Mill, and his descendants were still there in 1994.

Some other notes show - 

"Sons of John Joyce Junr, Shapwick, Miller by reference to family bible:- James Joyce born 1783 living Morden;  John Joyce born 1785 died 41 years ago; William Joyce born 1790 died 5 years ago; Thos Joyce born 1792 died 20 years ago.
The above were brothers of mine.  John died 3 weeks before I was born and I was named after him, John Joyce.
Any further information I can give you, I most readily will personally.  
I am yours respectfully, John Joyce, Wimborne 17 Jan 1839.  Born 5 Aug 1797"

The Mill it would seem was still being used as such in 1841 and 1851 although we know that by 1885 it was not.  Mention is made of the Mill in “Historical Monuments County of Dorset” Vol. V East - “House and Water powered corn mill now disused are respectively of 2 and 3 storey and has brick walls and tiled roofs.  The house appears to be of the Mid 18th Century, had symmetrical N.E. front of three bays.  The plan is of class T.  the mill adjacent on the S.W. has segmental headed openings and walls have brick dentill cornices.  The keystone of the archway over the mill race is dated 1776.”

At Dorset County Record Office is a Lease dated 28th March 1806 from the Rt. Hon George Lord Rivers of Stratfieldsay Co. Southampton to James Joyce and George Cull yeomen of Shapwick for various meadows, pastures, crofts, and fields for an annual rent of 132 pounds.  Window taxes, poor rates, and Vicarial tithes also had to be discharged.  This James Joyce was probably the son of John and Prudence who married Ann Cull in Shapwick in 1795.  Window tax was first levied in 1696 and was repealed in July 1851.

Henry Stanley Joyce, a son of Thomas Davis Joyce, wrote several books - in one of these, "I was born in the country", he talks of his life in White Mill and its farm.

In his book “I was born in the country” he mentions that he had three sisters, the second being almost cripple and the youngest was named Dora.  He also mentions his “young brother”.  An Aunt of his father, Aunt Hayter lived to be nearly 100.  The farm and mill, he says, remained home to his father all his days.  very little is really said about his family but in one part of the book he says - “The Shamrock was shown to us as the emblem of Ireland, from which country we were said to have originated many ages earlier; the family tradition was that we were directly descended from the ruling clan in West Ireland, that we had come to England with the ancestors of our own Landlord and that we had assisted one of his ancestors in an historic siege against the Roundheads.  I have always preferred to let this remain as a pleasant family romance rather than make any attempt to verify it and probably destroy the illusion.”  His father, he claimed, was a fine singer which took him to every village and town in a ten mile radius.  The Mill had fallen into disuse but the bakery at the back of the Mill was still used.

The Poole Pilot 1/1/1868, p.8 refers to singing by Messrs T & C Joyce at “Xmas Entertainment” at Town Hall. - This could have been Thomas Davis Joyce and his brother aged 27 and 23 respectively.

As an example of sentences that were passed in 1813 it is interesting to note that Mark James (aged 47) was committed to “hard labor for 6 cal. months on suspicion of stealing several sack bags, a quantity of thrashed wheat, a corn fork, and a fir rafter, the property of James Joyce of Shapwick”.

Prudence, the first wife of John Joyce was buried in 1796.  John Joyce, widower married Mary Howard Colins Small in 1799.  George Joyce, the only child (it is thought) from the second marriage of John Joyce, married Mary Prince in Blandford on 25th November 1820.  Mary was the daughter of Stephen and Jane Prince and had been baptised in Blandford on 25th December 1799.  George and Mary appear to have lived initially in Bridport in Dorset for it was there on 12th October 1821 that George Prince Joyce was baptised (son of George Small and Mary Joice Bridport scrivener).  Whilst living in Bridport at least one other son - Edwin Joyce was born (circa 1824).

Between 1824 and circa 1830 the family moved to Blandford.  A mass baptism was held on 21st January 1835 of Henry Holmes, John Small, Alfred Harry, Stephen Charles Burt, Septimus, and Mary Jane all children of George and Mary Joyce, solicitors clerk.  In fact Stephen Charles Burt Joyce was born about 1830, Septimus Joyce about 1832, and Mary Joyce about 1835 - all in Blandford.  Why Edwin Joyce aged about eleven at the time, was not included in the baptism appears a mystery.  Family recollections say there were 13 children  in this family and one of them was an Octavus Joyce.  On 8th September 1837 an Octavus Joyce aged 7 months was buried in Shapwick although according to the church registers he was a resident of Blandford.  He is almost certainly the eighth son of George and Mary as the name (meaning eighth), date and locations are all consistent with this assumption.  Similarly Sarah Joyce (resident in Blandford but buried in Shapwick on 11th September 1838) was probably their ninth child.

This last NK (not known) name was probably named Leonora after the Census date.  Henry Joyce above could have become the Naturalist (Animal Bond) appearing in the 1881 Census in St Marylebone, London (aged 51 and unmarried).  John Joyce above is likely to have become the Upholsterer in the 1881 Census in 4 Caversham Rd, Portsea, Hampshire (his wife was Janet born about 1824 in Southsea)

Some time between 1841 and 1844 George and Mary Joyce moved to the IOW.

Interestingly Julianna’s second name was based upon the Isle of Wight.  By 1855 the family was settled in and becoming established on the IOW.

From the marriage certificate (1865) of Alfred Joyce, son of George and Mary, we see he was also a guilder in Ryde - possibly working with Edwin.

Family memories say there were 13 children of George & Mary and it is thought the list on the family tree is complete.  Also it was said that there was some link with Sir Edward Elgar.  We know from the marriage certificate of Jeannette Joyce that she married a William Henry Elgar (Musician), but no link with Sir Edward Elgar the composer has been established.  Also in the 1881 Census in Tormoham, Devon, Jennette Elgar (Professor Of Music Wife) was visiting her sister Mary J Brook.   The voters register, 1927/8 showed for 21 Lena Gardens, Hammersmith, both Jeannette Elgar and Juliana Joyce.

Mary J Joyce married Frank Brook who in the 1881 Census Tormoham, Devon, was a Carver & Guilder.  They must have moved away from the IoW after their daughter Ada was born about 1873

Francis Albert Joyce may have been named after the Prince Consort Francis Albert Augustus Charles Emmanuel as Queen Victoria and he were popular visitors to Osborne House on the IOW.

G P Joyce was admitted to the Law Society during the Hilliary Term (January 11/13) 1850, and in the third quarter of 1855 he married Emma Maria Hearn on the IOW.  He obviously achieved a measure of success for by 1878 he was on the Town Council of Newport and had his own solicitors business at Seymour House, Sea Street, Newport and also at Ryde.  At the age of 67 he died (1889).

FRANCIS ALBERT JOYCE (1859 - 1941)

From “The Victorian History to Hampshire & the I.o.Wight” (1912) we see that the Manor at Shide was sold to Mrs F A Joyce in 1901 who then sold it in 1910.  Kennerly, Godshill was the property of Mr F A Joyce in 1912. (this was a smallholding) He left a Will and probate was granted on £12,097.

In Aug 1977 Frank A Joyce said he thought a son of Francis Joyce lived in a public house at Whitwell on the road from Brightstone.  This was not followed up, and as Francis had no children it must have been another relative.

FREDRICK HEARN JOYCE (1857 -     ) and FREDRICK MICHAEL HEARN JOYCE ( - 1970)

EDWIN JOYCE (c 1824 - 1897)

Helen Beatrice married William Teague who had a Music shop in Ryde and although in 1978 it was still operating under the same name it did not belong to a Teague.

STEPHEN CHARLES BURT JOYCE (c 1830 - 1883)

Thus Henry Atwell must have been born about 1795.

C S Joyce, son of S C B Joyce is said to have remembered living in the “Kings Head” when he was 3 years old and that the Innkeeper was trying to run stage coaches before the railways came,  but he lost money on it - this would have been about 1860.

S C B Joyce died in 1883 aged 52, which is why by 1895 the family business had changed its name.  From a family photograph we know that the business was called E Joyce & Son showing that his wife Ellen had taken over the shop with son C S Joyce who was about 26 when his father died.

According to a mourning card Ellen died 9th August 1908 aged 76.

CHARLES STEPHEN JOYCE (1857 - 1937)

All the debts were cleared by about 1910 and C S Joyce was declared as discharged - according to the memory of his son Frank Joyce.

A newspaper report in 1902 revealed further details of the bankruptcy:

“I.W. BANKRUPTCY COURT.

Monday, February 3rd, at the Town Hall, Newport, before the registrar (Alfred Dashwood, Esq.)

COWES PRINTERS’ FAILURE

RE CHARLES STEPHEN JOYCE AND ELLEN JOYCE (trading as E Joyce & Son), of Birmingham Road, Cowes, Printers and Stationers. - Debtors’ statement showed: gross liabilities, £345 17s 7d;

expected to rank, £329 4s 1d; estimated available assets, £79 3s 8d; deficiency, £250 0s 5d. - This was the day fixed for the public examination of the debtors. - The Official Receiver (Mr H C Damant) asked for an order dispensing with the attendance of Mrs Joyce.  She had little to do with the conduct of the business, which had been in the hands of the son.  Mrs Joyce was 70 years of age, and he had a certificate from her doctor (Dr Robinson) stating that she was suffering from bronchitis and heart disease and was unable to attend. - Mr A T Ivens, solicitor to the debtors, supported the application. - The learned Registrar said the would make an order dispensing with the attendance and public examination of Ellen Joyce. - Charles Stephen Joyce, examined by the Official Receiver, stated that the business was previously carried on by his father who died in June, 1883.  Witness was married and had children.  He had one brother.  They had all been living on the premises.  There had been nothing in the way of an agreement or partnership deed.  Since his father’s death the business had been carried on as before - except that the name was altered to E Joyce and Son - and they had all been living out of it.  His father left a will, but it had not been proved. - Asked if there was any arrangement to a division of the profits, witness said he never saw any.  The business was not solvent at the time of his father’s death, and they had never been in a position to pay what they owed or what he owed.  They held the premises on a yearly tenancy, under Mrs Daniel, at £25 a year rent.  Of late years they had been pressed a good bit.  Never had any surplus money.  Kept no banking account - never had anything to bank.  The number of outstanding accounts was small, as they had to get ready money, or they could not have carried on the thing at all.  Had never gone into the state of their affairs or made up a balance-sheet.  had kept a record of work done and a sort of cash-book, in which was entered money taken for a job done, and it was paid away almost directly.  There was always some one waiting for it.  There was nothing to show what was drawn for household expenses, but he estimated that they came to about 25s a week - Q. Did you all live on that? - Yes, my children are very young. - Q. You owe Mr Dunlop a considerable sum for money lent? - Yes. - Q. Was it owing during your father’s time? - £110 of it.  Q. And you have borrowed since from him? - Yes, one sum of £50 and another of £40, on promissory notes.  £216 is owing now, the £16 being for interest.  - Q. What interest did you pay? - 5 per cent.  It was paid when we got it.  He had something nearly every month.  - Q. As a matter of fact you have been paying interest for nearly 20 years? - Yes.  - Q. And your father before you?  - Yes.  - Answering further questions, witness said he did not know what arrangements his father made with Mr Dunlop.  The plant had never been out of their possession since he had been there.  The plant had remained practically the same, a little being added.  Mr Dunlop had several times stated that he should call the money in but as a matter of fact he had never done so.  With regard to the furniture, part belonged to his wife consisted of wedding presents and things she bought before marriage.  He had nothing of his own in the way of furniture except an old piano.  He and his mother were insured for small sums in the industrial branch of the Prudential.  The amount of his insurance was £20, and he thought his mother’s was £8.  The policies were in the possession of Mr Saxby for money lent - he thought it was £16.  Was not aware if there was a bill of sale on the plant in his father’s time:  there was none on it now.  At the time the petition was filed one or two creditors had judgments against them.  A sum of 30s owing to Mrs Billows was money lent two or three years ago.  He had endeavoured to make up a deficiency account but it was only an estimate, made to the best of his knowledge - by Mr Ivens:  Mr Dunlop was a draper at Southampton.  He had seen nothing in the nature of a charge on the plant.  He believed there was some agreement, but he did not know what it was.  It was with his father.  - Asked as to the plant, witness said the machinery was very old.  There were two presses which were quite out of date.  -  Mr Ivens asked that the examination be closed, and no objections being offered by the Official Receiver, the Registrar made an order concluding the examination.”

Whilst in Southampton the family lived in Ashtree Road and later in Priory Road.  In 1936 C S Joyce and his wife moved to Luton, Bedfordshire.  It was in Luton, on 26th August 1937, that C S Joyce died - he was buried in Luton (Crawley Green Road Cemetery). His wife died in 1953 in Gurnard, IOW.

FLORA EMILY JOYCE (1860 - 1935)

J S D Bishop married Leila Leonie Mable Clark who also came from a sea faring family.  Her grandfather George John Clark was a Captain as evidenced by a clock presented 1 May 1887 for 14 years service as Captain on the “Aries” belonging to Sir James Ramsden.  Leonie’s father, Earnest Sidney George Clark, also had his Captain’s ticket and served as Chief Officer on yachts such as “Medussa” and the “Clementina” which was owned by the Harrison Shipping Line.  At the time when the Panama Canal was being cut he went ashore there with a shooting party which included a Naval Cadet who was to become King George VI.

SEPTIMUS JOYCE (c1832 - )

ENA MARY JOYCE (1897 - 1965)

Between 1914 and 1919 Miss E M Joyce worked in the Land Army, in Bourton near Mere in Wiltshire.  After the war she then trained as a nurse at the Royal Southants & Southampton hospital (1920 - 1924).  By 1932 E M Joyce had risen through Ward Sister to Deputy Matron at the Bute Hospital, Luton.  For the next 17 years she was Matron of the Evelina Hospital for Sick Children, Southwark, London.

After retiring she moved to Solent-View Road, Gurnard on the IOW. with her mother and Mary Hopkins her life-long companion who herself had progressed to be Deputy Matron at the Luton & Dunstable Hospital, Luton.

In 1958 the house in Gurnard was needed by the Billowes family to whom it belonged and so Ena and Mary moved to “Little Barn”, Rodney Stoke, Somerset.  Both on the Island and at Rodney Stoke elderly people were nursed to supplement the pensions of Ena and Mary.  Their homes were also popular for holidays by other members of the family.

By 1964 “Little Barn” was too much for them to maintain and they moved a few miles to Winscombe where in 1965 Ena died.  She was cremated nearby.

Mary Hopkins moved to Southampton  to be near the Joyces there, and she lived but a few years more.

FRANK ALFRED JOYCE (1899 - 1980)

F A Joyce lived in Southampton all his life.  He started work at the age of 14, initially working in Conroy’s ironmongers shop for a wage of 4 shillings (20p) a week.  After a short time he then worked for Dibbens who were also ironmongers, and then when he was 18 joined the Artist’s Rifles, an infantry regiment.  During his service in the First World War he served in France.  After the war he rejoined Dibbens, in the shop at first and then travelling for them.  Later FA Joyce travelled for another member of the Dibbens family - this was in electrical goods and covered the south of England, the IOW., and the Channel Islands.

During his many years travelling and also in retirement F A Joyce was an active Freemason.

CHARLES HARRY JOYCE (1901 - 1987)

C H Joyce (called Harry) was born in Cowes on 4th June 1901.  When quite young the family moved to Southampton and C H Joyce attended Bittern Park School.  Travel to town was by foot or tramcar in those days.

At the age of 14 he started work at a photographic studio in Southampton at a weekly wage of 2s 6d (12.5p).  During 1935/6 he worked in Folkestone at a wage of £2 10s 0d (£2.50).  In  1930 he married Ethel Margaret Farr.  According to a 1939 Luton Directory they were at 127 Stuart St.  In 1944 using a loan of £100 from his father-in-law F W Farr to assist in the purchase of a confectionery and tobacco shop (price £1,070) at 127 Stuart St, Luton from Mr F Baldwin, an uncle of Ethel.  Whilst Mrs Joyce ran the shop C H Joyce worked at an Engineering firm (Electrocult) in Batford, Harpenden and progressed there until he was a foreman in charge of a group of eight men.  The work was mainly sheet metal work and welding.

In about 1950 C H Joyce joined his wife in the shop and carried on with the business after she died in 1957.  A house was purchased then at 51 Russel Rise, Luton for the family to live in.  In 1964 he remarried and after a few years retired when the shop was acquired by the Luton Council under a Compulsory Purchase Order for a new road scheme.

C H Joyce then was very active in his hobbies of oil painting and woodworking until he died 13th June 1987.  

NORA MAY JOYCE (1904 - 1985)

N M Joyce was born on Friday 4th March 1904 in Thetis Road, Cowes and very shortly after, the family moved to Southampton where Nora was Christened (25th May 1905 at the Church of Ascension, Bittern Park, by Edward Alger).  She was educated at Bittern Park Girls School before starting work in an ironmongers.  Shortly afterwards Nora went into service as a cook/ladies maid in Taunton for the Orr-Ewings family.  When they moved to London she worked for a Mrs Cussack in Ickenham.  It was after returning to Mrs Cussack, after a break, that Nora met David Killoh.  They married on 11th April 1936, and moved to live in Uxbridge, Middlesex.

Nora died in 4th October 1985.

(dictated to a grandson, Stephen, in 1974 for school project)

I was born at Cowes, IOW 4-June-1901.

My parents moved from the IOW when I was 1 or 2 years old and the went to Southampton and we lived at Bittern Park which was a suburb and near the river Hitchen and we children went to Bittern Park School.  The children were not so well dressed and looked after as they are now, there no mixed classes and no school meals.

My father who was a printer was out of work nearly every year for weeks at a time and we had to have credit at the local shop and pay back when he was in work.  My mother went out two afternoons a week for dressmaking.  We used  to play in the street - rounders, tit - tat, football with a small ball or cricket with the same sort of ball and the lamp post for a wicket and as there were copses near we played there and climbed trees etc.  During the winter evenings we would do drawing and paintings - Xmas cards for out Aunts and Grandparents.  I was quite young when I did this and apparently what  you learn young you never forget because now after a break of 60 years I can copy paintings.  I also used to carve little things out of the thick part of celluloid combs and there again when I retired I found that I could carve figures out of wood.  We used to get a penny or half penny a week if my dad was working.  The only holidays we got were a visit to Cowes to visit my relations.  Some years we had Sunday School treats.  I can’t remember my parents hitting any of us children except for an odd slap but never a thrashing, but at school one didn’t go far out of line before getting the cane for talking in class and playing about.  Sometimes 2 or 3 strokes on each hand - I think some of the masters enjoyed hitting us kids.

We walked to school, about ½ mile.  They all walked - some had a mile or just over.  If we had to go into town we went by tram car or else walked.

My mother lived to be 86 and my father 80 so of course I remember a lot about them.  I remember my grandmother a kind wrinkled old lady and I remember my grandfather [maternal grandparent] a bearded old gent who had been a Captain of a yacht but when he retired he had a musical shop and we children, when we went over there for a summer holiday used to love to call there and have a present of a tin whistle or a mouth organ or a jaws harp.

Of course the two wars  made a big impression on me although I was too young for the first and too old for the second to have to fight on active service.  When the General Strike in 1926 happened I was in the Territorial Army and expected to be called to keep the peace but it never came to that.  Of course I remember the depression if one was lucky to get a job you just hung onto it.  There was a  joke that was told at that time of a man in  a river calling for help, a chap on the bank shouted “where do you work” and when the poor fellow who was drowning told him he rushed off to get the job only to find it was taken by the person that had pushed him in.

My people moved several times because they couldn’t pay the rent.  I remember my elder sister going round to the Vicarage to get a basin of soup for us.

I think the main change is the mini skirt and boys and men all had short hair which was more a necessity then as it was quite easy to pick up head lice at school.  It was quite common, in the poorer parts of Southampton and around the dock area, to see children running about with no shoes or stockings on and the other clothing very ragged.  The washing was done in a copper which was bricked round and a coal or wood fire underneath and brought to the boil and pushed and prodded with a wooden copper-stick.  There was no ‘fridge or central heating and we had oil lamps and candles at first but I remember while I was at school age the gas being installed.

I started work at 14 at a photographers, the biggest studio in Southampton, and my wages were 2/6 per week - which was a bit low even in those days, but the manager told my father I would be learning a trade.  My first task was making photo frames and helping wash the photographs and carrying the big camera for the boss when we went out taking photographs and gradually I did more and taking the photos.  I well remember taking a photo of the Titanic Memorial and I had a permit to allow me to go into the docks and photograph during the first war and I still have the permit.  I slogged in photography for over 20 years working in 6 different towns and stopping in many lodging and homes but the depression was on and I could not seem to get much of a wage.  I was married in 1929 and during 1935/6 I had a nice job as outdoor operations in Folkstone with a car at my disposal (Austin Seven) but I could only earn £2-10-0d a week.  When my father-in-law offered to lend us £100 towards buying a sweet and tobacco business in Luton. It was decided to accept the offer and my wife would look after the shop and I would find another job in Luton where there was something of a boom.  As  I could not get a post in photography I did get a job as an improver in a new venture called The Electro Horticultural Co. starting wage was 11d per hour.  I worked hard at this job and got on fine until I was make a foreman of about 8 men and when my wages reached £5 per week I thought I had it made.  By this time I had learned welding and sheet metal work and then Hitler started and that finished the Horticultural part of work - so we made tin boxes for gas masks and other various other tinplate and sheet metal work.  I became disenchanted with a new manager and left to work at Eletrolux welding depth charges and from there to welding at Vauxhall Motors.  I was at work twice when it was bombed.  During the big raid I had a lucky escape as a bomb dropped in front of me only about 20ft or so - it came through the floor above and straight through the floor I was standing on and landed in the basement underneath, standing upright it had made a nest for it’s nose  and it had not exploded.  It was tall as me I know because I saw it as I went to the shelter after the planes passed on.

The two main differences in ways of living  now and when I was young is the television and the take over of the motor car - both are wonderful and give tremendous pleasure but people are no happier and we do not know what the effect of television will have on the minds of those who are brought up on it.

Women have much more freedom now especially in dress which has made them bigger and stronger for instance young women now stride along faster than the men do but otherwise they have not changed much - thank goodness.

The towns have about doubled in size.  The character has gone, in many instants the interesting old buildings and shops have been pulled down and boxes of steel glass and concrete have been put in their places  This is as near a factory as it can be.  The output has increased tremendously which is a good thing really because there are a lot more to feed.

Flying has advanced beyond the dream of the science fiction.  I have seen as you might say the birth of the camera and then decline to a large extent.  Television has done away with the old theatre.  Medical and dental treatments are vastly improved

Transcribed from an audio cassette sent for Christmas 1977 to his brother Harry and nephew Brian

HOW I STARTED WORK

This is the story of how I started work. I left school at the age of 15 and of course wanted a job and took the Echo and scanned it. I had a good idea that I was so fond of doing little bits of carpentry and I kept rabbits and used to build rabbit hutches, and would go quite often down to the iron mongers shop to buy staples and wire netting, nails and small tools which of course I used to buy cheap and I decided I should like to be an ironmonger with such a variety of things in an ironmonger's shop and I saw an advertisement to go to a firm with the name of Conroys at the bottom of St Mary's Street and I went down and applied for it and got it. They asked me to start on the next Monday morning. Well of course I started in this job and my job down there was to be an apprentice but it never got to that and I had to sweep up the shop and put out the stuff that was put outside the shop and all these little tasks. I left in August and as the winter came on towards Christmas (by the way the hours were from 8 in the morning until 8 at night and 9 on Fridays and 7 o'clock on Saturdays and my money was 4 shillings a week, tuppence of which I had to pay each day to get on the tram except the days when I ran all the way to keep warm. 

While we were there, there was another lad there working and we were always up to mischief of some sort or other. In the process of our job we were taught to manufacture cartridges for 12-bore guns and this entailed filling a certain little measure into a case and pouring this powder in and puting in a wad and then puting in a little measure of shot and puting in some more wad, then sealing of the thing and puting them on one side. They used to sell quite a lot of them down there and we made them up. "Easies??" cartridges they were called. Well we devised the scheme of taking one of these cartridges and found a piece of pipe (gas or water pipe) and we stuck one of these cartridges up and put a few nuts and bolts in the other end of this long piece of tube, and got a punch and a hammer and we hit the cap and of course it shot the nuts and bolts and we shot them straight through the office window. We didn't dream it would do anything at all, we had it pointed up in the air. We thought it would go up in the air - and so it did - but it came down at an angle and went through the office window. Well of course, the Governor came out and brought out a broom stick and gave me a couple of wallops on the back-side and I decided that it was enough for me and I wasn't going to stay there with a man that could wallop me with a broom stick. 

So I decided that although there was no advertisement there was a big iron mongers called 'Dibbens' up the road and one dinner time after I had had my sandwiches I walked up the road to Dibbens and I went into the shop and I said to the man behind the counter, I said can I speak to Mr. Dibbens and the man said what do you want to see him about? I said "I want a job, I wanted to know if I could come and work here" and he said "Well just a moment I'll go and see if he is available" so he went along to an office and came back and said Mr. Dibbens will see you in a moment and so I waited in the shop. Waited and waited ... and presently he came to me and said Mr. Dibbens will see you now. So I went along and he said "just knock the door and go in". Well I knocked the door and went in and near to where Mr. Dibbens was sitting was a large office clock, the sort you have in a shop, about 8 inches to 10 inches across. I said about 4 or 5 minutes to one. I had then at least half a mile back to where I had to be by 1 o'clock. So I just looked at Mr. Dibbens and I said "Sorry I can't stop now I have got to be back at 1 o'clock". With that I turned on my heels and went off and Mr. Dibbens called out to the Manager "take that boy's name" and the Manager caught me as I got to the door and said "What's your name son?" and I gave him my name and address and he said "Alright, go on then". With that I nipped out the shop and down the road and I didn't want to be late in case the Manager down there gave me a clip under the ear for being late, which they did in those days. You were just somebody that worked there and if you did something wrong you just got a clip - not serious of course. Anyway on the Monday morning I got a letter from Dibbens to say I could start the following Monday if I chose. With that of course I gave a weeks notice at Conroy's and went to work at Dibbens and there I stayed for 22 years.

HOW I GOT ONTO THE ROAD AND BECAME A COMMERCIAL TRAVELER

We use to hold annual sales like most of the shops and we had this sale and in this sale we used to put wonderful bargains. One of the big bargains we had were nest of 3 saucepans, enameled saucepans, which sold for 2/11d. The sale was almost at an end and these saucepans had gone like hot-cakes. We had sold out in a couple of days although we had grosses of them and a lady came into the shop one day to me and said "I would like 3 of those saucepans that you had for 2/11d" (it was something like 7 1/8 and 8 inch and a 9 inch saucepans and the stood one on top of the other). I said "I am very very sorry madam but they are all gone" I said "Of course they were a wonderful bargain". "Yes" she said "I thought they were. I just couldn't get in yesterday when you had them in the window". I said "I tell you what we have got, just come in, some wonderful hair brooms, pure bristle brooms and they are only 2/11d" and I said "And they are a real bargain and I said if they weren't in the tail end of this sale they would be about 3/11d or 4/- or 4/6d. She said " Yes they are nice aren't they. All right I'll have one". Of course I wrapped it up, took her 2/11d and away she went as happy as a sand boy. Well it so happened that my boss happened to come into the shop. I didn't see him and he stood round behind one of our big displays and he heard every word of this and he said to me later "I've heard of a lot of things when it comes to salesmanship but I think that just about does it. Somebody want three saucepans and you sell them a broom."